Alessandra Kersevan, ex insegnante ed oggi paziente ricercatrice di storia e cultura della sua regione, il Friuli, da anni lavora al recupero della memoria storica in merito agli avvenimenti del confine orientale.
A Trieste la storia non comincia il 1° maggio 1945…
Sì, Sembra un'osservazione banale, eppure di fronte a tante cose che sono state scritte in questi anni sulle vicende del confine orientale occorre chiarire e ricordare che il fascismo in questa regione è stato più violento che in qualsiasi altra parte d'Italia: sloveni e croati, oltre cinquecentomila persone che abitavano le terre annesse dallo stato italiano dopo la prima guerra mondiale furono oggetto di persecuzioni razziali e ogni tipo di angherie: divieto di usare la loro lingua, chiusura delle scuole, delle associazioni ed enti economici sloveni e croati, arresto degli oppositori, esecuzioni di condanne a morte decise dal Tribunale Speciale. Con l'aggressione nazifascista alla Jugoslavia, nel 1941, la nostra regione divenne avamposto della guerra e le persecuzioni contro sloveni e croati, anche cittadini italiani, divennero ancora più gravi: interi paesi furono deportati nei campi di concentramento come Arbe/Rab, Today in Croatia, but then annexed to Italy after the attack on Yugoslavia, Gonars in the province of Udine, Renicci of Anghiari in the province of Arezzo, Chiesanuova of Padua, Treviso Monigo, Fraschette Alatri in the province of Frosinone, Colfiorito in Umbria , Cairo Montenotte in the province of Savona and dozens and dozens of others in virtually all regions of Italy. Between 7 and 11 thousand people, women, men, children, entire families perished in these camps, hunger and disease. In Trieste was established in 1942 for the Suppression of the partisan resistance to the Special Police Inspectorate for Venezia Giulia, which is stained with heinous crimes against the anti-fascists in general, but especially against Croats and Slovenes.
Who was inaugurated the use of sinkholes?
authoritative There is evidence (eg police inspector De Giorgi, who was in charge of postwar recoveries and sinkholes) that his men were special Inspectorate, particularly those of team policy, the so-called band Collotti , to blow in the "Karst caves" of the detainees who died under torture. However, going even further back in time, even during the First World War that was fought mainly in these lands, the sinkholes were used as a burial place "quickly" after the bloody battles, and after the war the fascists published texts of songs in which they threatened to throw in foibe who insisted on not to mention "the speech of Dante."
What function did the Banda Colotti?
Collotti The gang was the policy of the Inspectorate team special guided precisely by Commissioner Gary Collotti. With his team beat the Carso to suppress the resistance that had begun as early as '42 in these areas. It blots of heinous crimes, torturing and killing hundreds of people. How Resistenzastorica we are publishing with the publishing house Kappa Vu on the search for Claudia Cernigoi Collotti band. During several years of research Cernigoi managed to find a substantial amount of documentation. Yet in this no war, not even the historical institutes of Trieste and Udine, had published nothing on the subject.
define the sinkholes. Who is over there? Women? Children? How many in all? Why is there so much attention on these executions, while in other areas there were many more?
In foibe not over women and children, the profiles of those who are nearly all adults are infoibati compromise with fascism, with regard to the Istrian foibe of '43, and the German occupation as regards' 45. The cases of some women infoibate are tied to particular facts, personal vendettas, which can not be attributed to the movement of liberation. This becomes evident when you go to analyze the documents, which unfortunately most of the "historic" in these years did not, content to return to issues and arguments of the neo-fascist propaganda. It must be said that the numbers are not absolutely those of the propaganda of recent years: it is well established that in Istria in '43 people were killed during the uprising after September 8 are between 250 and 500, most of the killed time of the reoccupation of the territory by the fascists, in '45 missing persons, are less than five hundred thousand less in Trieste and Gorizia, some shot but most died of disease in a concentration camp in Yugoslavia. I use the term "Disappeared", but unfortunately there has existed infoibati define the use of all deaths at the hands partisan. In fact in '45 people "infoibate" were several dozen, and these deaths there were in the months following the processes and sentences, which showed that it was in kind of personal vendettas against spies or retained as such. Then there is the episode of foiba Pluto, which were extracted 18 bodies, in which the "infoibatori" were members of the Decima Mas infiltrators and criminals among the partisans, and were arrested and tried by the Yugoslavs themselves. So if you go to analyze existing documentation shows that it is a series that may not match varies on a project of "ethnic cleansing" by the Yugoslavs as we have said often in recent years.
The great attention to these facts is functional to the criminalization of the Yugoslav resistance, which was the largest European resistance. On reflection we criminalize all resistance, and opened the gate to criminalize even the Italian one, as is proving Pansa hours with his books.
Scholars foibe. Who am I?
are of various kinds. What we call a little 'ironically' foibologi "are all extreme right-wingers, some, like Luigi Papo have even part of the Fascist militia in Istria, which means those who collaborated with the Nazis in the suppression of resistance. Other, younger, like Mark Pirina were members of neo-fascist organizations in the years of the strategy of tension (for example, he is involved in the coup Borghese). Then there is the tendency of historians referring to the CLN Trieste (organization not connected with the CLNAI) who was the greatest organizer of the 'operation foibe "in Trieste after the war. While it may be easy enough to understand the manipulations of "historiography" fascist, it is much harder to defend against intrusion of historiography ciellenista, because they have an aura of anti-fascism that is good to take all the things they write. Actually reading loro libri ti accorgi che sono citazioni di citazioni da altri libri (spesso memorie di fascisti) non sottoposte a verifica. Il problema è che su tutta questa questione delle foibe ha pesato nel dopoguerra il clima della guerra fredda: voglio ricordare che un importantissimo documento di fonte alleata agli inizi del '46 diceva: sospendiamo, non avendo trovato nulla di interessante, le ricerche nel pozzo della miniera di Basovizza, ma perché gli Jugoslavi non possano dire che è stata tutta propaganda contro di loro, diremo che lo abbiamo fatto per mancanza di mezzi tecnici adeguati. Ha pesato e pesa inoltre molto la questione dei confini, e il sentimento delle "terre ingiustamente perdute", che anche se con toni un po' diversi, coinvolge anche gli storici che fanno riferimento politicamente al centro sinistra. Ci sono però anche tantissimi storici seri. Per "seri" intendo quelli che non si accontentano di quello che è già stato scritto, ma che cercano nuova documentazione, la analizzano, la confrontano con quanto è già stato pubblicato e inseriscono gli avvenimenti nel contesto in cui sono avvenuti. Questo è il metodo storiografico che tutti dovrebbero usare, ma, sembrerà incredibile, nella questione della foibe e dell'esodo anche storici accademici e "blasonati" si sono lasciati andare a metodi da propagandisti più che da storici, preferendo le citazioni di citazioni di citazioni, piuttosto che la fatica della ricerca.
La foiba di Basovizza. There is a plaque commemorating the victims, but the story looks very different ...
documentation, documentation rather substantial, says that in mine there were Basovizza infoibamenti. By the summer of '45, and then very shortly after the alleged infoibamenti, the Allies proceeded for months in a survey of the pit of the mine (in fact it is not a foiba in a geological sense), in response to complaints from Trieste, who said that the CLN infoibati must have been a few hundred agents of the police headquarters in Trieste. Since there was nothing found "interesting" in early '46, the research was suspended, as I explained before. All this results from a large number of source documents ally in the archives of Washington and London. Then in the "foiba" there are "500 cubic meters" of infoibati that are written in stone, and even the two thousand infoibati cited in books. After Claudia Cernigoi reported these documents in his book "Operation foibe in Trieste" it should be obvious to everyone involved in the argument. But he pretends not to notice. The town of Trieste has now restored the monument on foiba and soon will be the chairman of the Senate Marini to inaugurate it. The lie has been living its own life, and you can not stop it.
Legends on foibe .
I have already explained that the biographies of most of those killed are involved in various capacities in the Fascist regime before and then Nazi occupation. Well as highlighting Claudia Cernigoi in his book, in a city such as Trieste interested in collaborating on many categories of people, and many of those who are called "civilians" were in reality and collaborators, informers by profession, who denounced the neighborhood snoops Jews. For example, the raids on the Karst with the band also participated Collotti people who were not officially members of the police station. As a group of Resistenzastorica we have conducted research on the issue of Udovisi Graziano, known as "the only one left alive from foiba and presented as a victim "just because Italian." This research has shown, in addition to the absolute falsity of his story, from '43 to '45 he was a lieutenant in the Territorial Defense Militia, a significant group by the name of "iron rod", specifically responsible for repression of the guerrillas, and in '46 he was convicted of war crimes in two years and 11 months imprisonment. Yet in 2005 Udovisi Graziano has become "Man of the Year," won the Oscar for his interview with Rai Minoli, presenting it as one that was "infoibato" only because Italian. As I said: historians, journalists and all those who write about these things in these years of Days of Remembrance, dovrebbero sapere che intorno a queste vicende c'è tanta propaganda, e che quindi bisogna informarsi bene prima di scrivere.
L'atteggiamento della destra e della sinistra.
Non si vede una grande differenza. La destra fascista ha trovato in questo argomento la possibilità di ribaltare il discorso delle responsabilità nella seconda guerra mondiale, passando da carnefici a vittime, con la possibile riabilitazione dei repubblichini di Salò ecc. La sinistra ha trovato l'occasione per prendere le distanze dal proprio passato partigiano, con tutta una serie di distinguo e di "ammissioni" in cui le foibe erano funzionali in quanto venivano attribuite a partigiani, sì, ma "slavi" (And you know that racism is widespread antislavo), and then he could stay out of the Italian resistance. The shortsightedness of such a position we see it today, in an operation such as Giampaolo Pansa, which directly attacks the Italian resistance.
It must be said also that the 'operation foibe "is functional to the Italian foreign policy, traditionally" expansion "to the Balkan Peninsula. In this sense, the center-right and center are no different. Resistenzastorica We have an impressive collection of statements by members of the center-left in neoirredentista sense, that is stretched to the claim of "lost lands" theme as well as being always tipico della destra, sembrerebbe oggi anche antistorico, nel momento dell'allargamento dell'UE. Eppure le dichiarazioni ci sono, anche di personaggi come Fassino.
Che cosa significa oggi commemorare i morti delle foibe?
Come ho spiegato, commemorare i morti nelle foibe significa sostanzialmente commemorare rastrellatori fascisti e collaborazionisti del nazismo. Per gli altri morti, quelli vittime di rese dei conti o vendette personali, c'è il 2 di novembre.
Che cosa andrebbe fatto per restituire dignità alla memoria storica del paese?
Per quanto riguarda la dignità del paese, credo che l'unica cosa da fare sia smettere the national conviction that the Italians have always been "good people", that wherever they went they brought civilization, even when burned villages in Croatia, Libya or the rebels hanged. Italians must realize that the Italian Republic has never really come to terms with the responsibilities of fascism. Behind the discourse of the sinkholes is precisely the interest of continuing to hide these responsibilities. In fact, the Italian proposal for tripartite meeting between the presidents of Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, on the memorial sites, and entering the Rice Mill of San Sabba, the concentration camp Gonars (or that of Rab) and Abyss Basovizza, is nothing an attempt to pull the wool over eyes, to forget the crimes Italian war in those territories by equating the Cave of the Basovizza Rice Mill, the only Nazi concentration camp crematorium, which killed over 3000 people, mostly Italian partisans, Slovenes and Croats, or the concentration camps which killed at least seven thousand Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins. The President of the Republic should go on its own initiative in Rab in Croatia, or Gonars to honor the victims of fascism, and to apologize to former Yugoslavia. This should be the first thing to do. Then the results should be published in the Slovene-Italian historical commission, the Italian Government had pledged to publish but never did. Then the government center sinistra potrebbe obbligare la RAi a trasmettere in prima serata il documentario "Fascist legacy / L'eredità fascista", sui crimini di guerra italiani in Etiopia, Libia e Jugoslavia. Questo documentario della BBC fu acquistato nell'89 dalla RAI, ma mai trasmesso.
A Trieste la storia non comincia il 1° maggio 1945…
Sì, Sembra un'osservazione banale, eppure di fronte a tante cose che sono state scritte in questi anni sulle vicende del confine orientale occorre chiarire e ricordare che il fascismo in questa regione è stato più violento che in qualsiasi altra parte d'Italia: sloveni e croati, oltre cinquecentomila persone che abitavano le terre annesse dallo stato italiano dopo la prima guerra mondiale furono oggetto di persecuzioni razziali e ogni tipo di angherie: divieto di usare la loro lingua, chiusura delle scuole, delle associazioni ed enti economici sloveni e croati, arresto degli oppositori, esecuzioni di condanne a morte decise dal Tribunale Speciale. Con l'aggressione nazifascista alla Jugoslavia, nel 1941, la nostra regione divenne avamposto della guerra e le persecuzioni contro sloveni e croati, anche cittadini italiani, divennero ancora più gravi: interi paesi furono deportati nei campi di concentramento come Arbe/Rab, Today in Croatia, but then annexed to Italy after the attack on Yugoslavia, Gonars in the province of Udine, Renicci of Anghiari in the province of Arezzo, Chiesanuova of Padua, Treviso Monigo, Fraschette Alatri in the province of Frosinone, Colfiorito in Umbria , Cairo Montenotte in the province of Savona and dozens and dozens of others in virtually all regions of Italy. Between 7 and 11 thousand people, women, men, children, entire families perished in these camps, hunger and disease. In Trieste was established in 1942 for the Suppression of the partisan resistance to the Special Police Inspectorate for Venezia Giulia, which is stained with heinous crimes against the anti-fascists in general, but especially against Croats and Slovenes.
Who was inaugurated the use of sinkholes?
authoritative There is evidence (eg police inspector De Giorgi, who was in charge of postwar recoveries and sinkholes) that his men were special Inspectorate, particularly those of team policy, the so-called band Collotti , to blow in the "Karst caves" of the detainees who died under torture. However, going even further back in time, even during the First World War that was fought mainly in these lands, the sinkholes were used as a burial place "quickly" after the bloody battles, and after the war the fascists published texts of songs in which they threatened to throw in foibe who insisted on not to mention "the speech of Dante."
What function did the Banda Colotti?
Collotti The gang was the policy of the Inspectorate team special guided precisely by Commissioner Gary Collotti. With his team beat the Carso to suppress the resistance that had begun as early as '42 in these areas. It blots of heinous crimes, torturing and killing hundreds of people. How Resistenzastorica we are publishing with the publishing house Kappa Vu on the search for Claudia Cernigoi Collotti band. During several years of research Cernigoi managed to find a substantial amount of documentation. Yet in this no war, not even the historical institutes of Trieste and Udine, had published nothing on the subject.
define the sinkholes. Who is over there? Women? Children? How many in all? Why is there so much attention on these executions, while in other areas there were many more?
In foibe not over women and children, the profiles of those who are nearly all adults are infoibati compromise with fascism, with regard to the Istrian foibe of '43, and the German occupation as regards' 45. The cases of some women infoibate are tied to particular facts, personal vendettas, which can not be attributed to the movement of liberation. This becomes evident when you go to analyze the documents, which unfortunately most of the "historic" in these years did not, content to return to issues and arguments of the neo-fascist propaganda. It must be said that the numbers are not absolutely those of the propaganda of recent years: it is well established that in Istria in '43 people were killed during the uprising after September 8 are between 250 and 500, most of the killed time of the reoccupation of the territory by the fascists, in '45 missing persons, are less than five hundred thousand less in Trieste and Gorizia, some shot but most died of disease in a concentration camp in Yugoslavia. I use the term "Disappeared", but unfortunately there has existed infoibati define the use of all deaths at the hands partisan. In fact in '45 people "infoibate" were several dozen, and these deaths there were in the months following the processes and sentences, which showed that it was in kind of personal vendettas against spies or retained as such. Then there is the episode of foiba Pluto, which were extracted 18 bodies, in which the "infoibatori" were members of the Decima Mas infiltrators and criminals among the partisans, and were arrested and tried by the Yugoslavs themselves. So if you go to analyze existing documentation shows that it is a series that may not match varies on a project of "ethnic cleansing" by the Yugoslavs as we have said often in recent years.
The great attention to these facts is functional to the criminalization of the Yugoslav resistance, which was the largest European resistance. On reflection we criminalize all resistance, and opened the gate to criminalize even the Italian one, as is proving Pansa hours with his books.
Scholars foibe. Who am I?
are of various kinds. What we call a little 'ironically' foibologi "are all extreme right-wingers, some, like Luigi Papo have even part of the Fascist militia in Istria, which means those who collaborated with the Nazis in the suppression of resistance. Other, younger, like Mark Pirina were members of neo-fascist organizations in the years of the strategy of tension (for example, he is involved in the coup Borghese). Then there is the tendency of historians referring to the CLN Trieste (organization not connected with the CLNAI) who was the greatest organizer of the 'operation foibe "in Trieste after the war. While it may be easy enough to understand the manipulations of "historiography" fascist, it is much harder to defend against intrusion of historiography ciellenista, because they have an aura of anti-fascism that is good to take all the things they write. Actually reading loro libri ti accorgi che sono citazioni di citazioni da altri libri (spesso memorie di fascisti) non sottoposte a verifica. Il problema è che su tutta questa questione delle foibe ha pesato nel dopoguerra il clima della guerra fredda: voglio ricordare che un importantissimo documento di fonte alleata agli inizi del '46 diceva: sospendiamo, non avendo trovato nulla di interessante, le ricerche nel pozzo della miniera di Basovizza, ma perché gli Jugoslavi non possano dire che è stata tutta propaganda contro di loro, diremo che lo abbiamo fatto per mancanza di mezzi tecnici adeguati. Ha pesato e pesa inoltre molto la questione dei confini, e il sentimento delle "terre ingiustamente perdute", che anche se con toni un po' diversi, coinvolge anche gli storici che fanno riferimento politicamente al centro sinistra. Ci sono però anche tantissimi storici seri. Per "seri" intendo quelli che non si accontentano di quello che è già stato scritto, ma che cercano nuova documentazione, la analizzano, la confrontano con quanto è già stato pubblicato e inseriscono gli avvenimenti nel contesto in cui sono avvenuti. Questo è il metodo storiografico che tutti dovrebbero usare, ma, sembrerà incredibile, nella questione della foibe e dell'esodo anche storici accademici e "blasonati" si sono lasciati andare a metodi da propagandisti più che da storici, preferendo le citazioni di citazioni di citazioni, piuttosto che la fatica della ricerca.
La foiba di Basovizza. There is a plaque commemorating the victims, but the story looks very different ...
documentation, documentation rather substantial, says that in mine there were Basovizza infoibamenti. By the summer of '45, and then very shortly after the alleged infoibamenti, the Allies proceeded for months in a survey of the pit of the mine (in fact it is not a foiba in a geological sense), in response to complaints from Trieste, who said that the CLN infoibati must have been a few hundred agents of the police headquarters in Trieste. Since there was nothing found "interesting" in early '46, the research was suspended, as I explained before. All this results from a large number of source documents ally in the archives of Washington and London. Then in the "foiba" there are "500 cubic meters" of infoibati that are written in stone, and even the two thousand infoibati cited in books. After Claudia Cernigoi reported these documents in his book "Operation foibe in Trieste" it should be obvious to everyone involved in the argument. But he pretends not to notice. The town of Trieste has now restored the monument on foiba and soon will be the chairman of the Senate Marini to inaugurate it. The lie has been living its own life, and you can not stop it.
Legends on foibe .
I have already explained that the biographies of most of those killed are involved in various capacities in the Fascist regime before and then Nazi occupation. Well as highlighting Claudia Cernigoi in his book, in a city such as Trieste interested in collaborating on many categories of people, and many of those who are called "civilians" were in reality and collaborators, informers by profession, who denounced the neighborhood snoops Jews. For example, the raids on the Karst with the band also participated Collotti people who were not officially members of the police station. As a group of Resistenzastorica we have conducted research on the issue of Udovisi Graziano, known as "the only one left alive from foiba and presented as a victim "just because Italian." This research has shown, in addition to the absolute falsity of his story, from '43 to '45 he was a lieutenant in the Territorial Defense Militia, a significant group by the name of "iron rod", specifically responsible for repression of the guerrillas, and in '46 he was convicted of war crimes in two years and 11 months imprisonment. Yet in 2005 Udovisi Graziano has become "Man of the Year," won the Oscar for his interview with Rai Minoli, presenting it as one that was "infoibato" only because Italian. As I said: historians, journalists and all those who write about these things in these years of Days of Remembrance, dovrebbero sapere che intorno a queste vicende c'è tanta propaganda, e che quindi bisogna informarsi bene prima di scrivere.
L'atteggiamento della destra e della sinistra.
Non si vede una grande differenza. La destra fascista ha trovato in questo argomento la possibilità di ribaltare il discorso delle responsabilità nella seconda guerra mondiale, passando da carnefici a vittime, con la possibile riabilitazione dei repubblichini di Salò ecc. La sinistra ha trovato l'occasione per prendere le distanze dal proprio passato partigiano, con tutta una serie di distinguo e di "ammissioni" in cui le foibe erano funzionali in quanto venivano attribuite a partigiani, sì, ma "slavi" (And you know that racism is widespread antislavo), and then he could stay out of the Italian resistance. The shortsightedness of such a position we see it today, in an operation such as Giampaolo Pansa, which directly attacks the Italian resistance.
It must be said also that the 'operation foibe "is functional to the Italian foreign policy, traditionally" expansion "to the Balkan Peninsula. In this sense, the center-right and center are no different. Resistenzastorica We have an impressive collection of statements by members of the center-left in neoirredentista sense, that is stretched to the claim of "lost lands" theme as well as being always tipico della destra, sembrerebbe oggi anche antistorico, nel momento dell'allargamento dell'UE. Eppure le dichiarazioni ci sono, anche di personaggi come Fassino.
Che cosa significa oggi commemorare i morti delle foibe?
Come ho spiegato, commemorare i morti nelle foibe significa sostanzialmente commemorare rastrellatori fascisti e collaborazionisti del nazismo. Per gli altri morti, quelli vittime di rese dei conti o vendette personali, c'è il 2 di novembre.
Che cosa andrebbe fatto per restituire dignità alla memoria storica del paese?
Per quanto riguarda la dignità del paese, credo che l'unica cosa da fare sia smettere the national conviction that the Italians have always been "good people", that wherever they went they brought civilization, even when burned villages in Croatia, Libya or the rebels hanged. Italians must realize that the Italian Republic has never really come to terms with the responsibilities of fascism. Behind the discourse of the sinkholes is precisely the interest of continuing to hide these responsibilities. In fact, the Italian proposal for tripartite meeting between the presidents of Italy, Slovenia, Croatia, on the memorial sites, and entering the Rice Mill of San Sabba, the concentration camp Gonars (or that of Rab) and Abyss Basovizza, is nothing an attempt to pull the wool over eyes, to forget the crimes Italian war in those territories by equating the Cave of the Basovizza Rice Mill, the only Nazi concentration camp crematorium, which killed over 3000 people, mostly Italian partisans, Slovenes and Croats, or the concentration camps which killed at least seven thousand Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins. The President of the Republic should go on its own initiative in Rab in Croatia, or Gonars to honor the victims of fascism, and to apologize to former Yugoslavia. This should be the first thing to do. Then the results should be published in the Slovene-Italian historical commission, the Italian Government had pledged to publish but never did. Then the government center sinistra potrebbe obbligare la RAi a trasmettere in prima serata il documentario "Fascist legacy / L'eredità fascista", sui crimini di guerra italiani in Etiopia, Libia e Jugoslavia. Questo documentario della BBC fu acquistato nell'89 dalla RAI, ma mai trasmesso.
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